[OZAPRS] European v US new paradigm and path limiting+confusion....

[Richard Hoskin]

Hi Mike,

I think you are correct about the possible confusion changes to the APRS
paths may course. I'm not sure how many operators really understand how
the
APRS paths work.

We put a few power point slides together a while ago to assist in the
understanding of APRS paths. Visit
http://vk3.aprs.net.au/symposium/pathing/frame.htm to see them.

I've also put a UI-View configuration guide on the web for VK3. It will
probably apply to most other states at the moment too. See
http://vk3.aprs.net.au/ui-view_config.htm As well there is a TinyTrack
parameter guide at http://vk3.aprs.net.au/tt_settings.htm and a VK3 and
path
guide for VK3 areas at http://vk3.aprs.net.au/packet_path_guide.htm 
I'll update these pages after a National APRS Standard is developed.

Hope this helps everyone in understanding APRS networking a little better.

Do you think that staying with RELAY,WIDE when the rest of the world moves
to WIDE1-1,WIDE2-2 will cause confusion for new VK operators in the
future?

Cheers
Richard
VK3JFK


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ozaprs-bounces at aprs.net.au [mailto:ozaprs-bounces at aprs.net.au] On
> Behalf Of Mike Townsend
> Sent: Monday, 30 October 2006 8:21 PM
> To: ozaprs at aprs.net.au
> Subject: Re: [OZAPRS] European v US new paradigm and path limiting
> +confusion....
> 
> Confusion, Spot on. I got involved in this aspect of the hobby
> approximately 9 months ago. I even but up an aerial at home for the
first
> time in years because this looked interesting. Something new to bite my
> teeth into. But it is only recently that I've come to terms with the
> potential of this system and its shortcomings.
> This is through wading through a heap of conflicting information from
the
> net and watching RF traffic here home.
> 
> My first port of call on the net for setting up my equipment for APRS
here
> in VK2 being  http://vk2.aprs.net.au/ and this is where the confusion
> begins on one page we have this,
> 
> DO
> So now, as a user, needing to choose a path to digi your packets
through,
> what should you use? Initially, set your UNPROTO path to RELAY (see your
> program docs for info on how to do this). Once you see some stations
> appear on your map, see who you can hear directly using the DIGI,
> PROTOPATH or DIRECT STATIONS list in your software. Can you hear a WIDE
> directly? If so, change your UNPROTO path to WIDE (or WIDE,WIDE if you
> want to go two hops). If not, and you can work a RELAY directly; try
> RELAY,WIDE (or RELAY,WIDE,WIDE).
> 
> and this,
> 
> DON'T use more than 3 hops. 3 hops will give you coverage of
approximately
> 250Km line of sight.
>     Example paths: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE  /  VK2THE-1,WIDE,WIDE  /  VK2KVK-
> 1,VK2RMR-1,WIDE  /  RELAY,WIDE3-3  /  VK2TPH-1,WIDE3-3
> 
> followed by this,
> 
>  For Eastern Sydney Suburbs:
> Fixed station: VK2JPJ-1, WIDE2-2
> 
> Mobile station: RELAY, WIDE2-2
> 
> For Western Sydney Suburbs and Lower Blue Mountains:
> 
> Fixed station: VK2RSW-1, WIDE2-2
> 
> Mobile station: RELAY, WIDE2-2
> 
> For the Illawarra area:
> 
> Fixed station: VK2AMW-1, WIDE2-2
> 
> Mobile station: RELAY,WIDE2-2
> 
> For the South Coast (Batemans Bay area):
> 
> Fixed station: VK2AMW-2, WIDE2-2
> 
> Mobile station: RELAY,WIDE2-2
> 
> For the Central Coast:
> 
> Fixed station: VK2RAG-1, WIDE2-2
> 
> Mobile station: RELAY,WIDE2-2
> 
> For the Central West:
> 
> Fixed station: WIDE
> 
> Mobile station: RELAY,WIDE2-2
> 
> For the Newcastle area:
> 
> Fixed station: WIDE
> 
> Mobile station: RELAY,WIDE2-2
> 
> For the Riverina:
> 
> Fixed station: VK2CSU-1, WIDE2-2
> 
> Mobile station: RELAY,WIDE2-2
> 
> Here they are talking about using and then not using the same paths all
on
> the one page.
> Also how long has it been since VK2RSW  has been on air?
> At least the recommended paths for VK2, knowing what I know now, are
what
> should be in common use. RELAY,WIDE2-2 in NSW if we are going to persist
> with using RELAY.
> But what do I see on air in common use RELAY,WIDE3-3, 4 hops. This
surely
> isn't necessary when with the present I-Gates you are usually no more
than
> two hops away from one.
> 
> Then looking overseas I start reading about the new n-n paradigm, more
> confusion to start with, but the more you read the more it makes sense.
It
> makes sense from the point that anyone new to APRS when researching it
on
> the net will most likely come across this information from a US web site
> that is of course pushing the new n-n paradigm and if like me they read
> about this and understand what BOB, WB4APR is trying to acheive you soon
> come to the conclusion that what we are doing here in Australia has had
> its day. Plus its SIMPLE. No need to wrap your brain around RELAY, WIDE,
> TRACE, WIDEn-n or TRACEn-n as a newcomer while wondering why your not
> making it into digi because maybe your path is wrong or because of the,
as
> then unknown, inefficiencies of the network. Or maybe you are just under
> or over deviating the radio  My closest digi at the time was VK2JPJ-1 at
a
> distance of 40km and this is what I had to wade my way through. I was a
> little foolish as well to think my MAXON w
>  ith approx 4W O/P would have a chance even with everything set up
> correctly. Even changing to the mobile with 50W didn't help much driving
> around the SW suburbs. I couldn't figure why others seemed to
consistently
> make it while I struggled. Then I went RF rx at home and that was soon
> answered by watching what was going on with there beacon rates. Plus the
> Internet to RF feed passing through VK2JPJ-1 was helping either.
> 
> With the new paradigm there is just the one path setting as a newcomer
to
> understand, WIDEn-n.
> 
> The new paradigm with the change over of VK3 to 145.175MHz makes sense
for
> network efficiency.
> 
> Full traceability and duplicate packet checking for WIDEn-n preferably
> with a 3 hop limit. For mobiles WIDE1-1,WIDE2-2 or home WIDE3-3, I like
to
> have a look from time to time and see where my packets have bouncing
> around the network and now use TRACEn-n as my beacon path.
> 
> State based FLOODING. In VK7 they use TASn-n, why not NSWn-n or QLDn-n
etc
> etc. If somebody wants to light up the State with his beacon, let him or
> she do it, but lets try and confine it to the State they are in.
> 
> Lets make it simple for the newcomers and even without a change to the
new
> paradigm we could make a start with updating the VK2 APRS web pages to
> remove the inconsistencies and errors.
> If the other states have similar web pages could the administrators have
a
> look and see if they need a workover to reflect what is actually
happening
> in your area.
> 
> I know for some this is all old hat for some and there are those who
think
> nothing needs to change but if its been a while since you have read up
on
> the subject please consider having a look at this.
> 
> http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/aprs/fix14439.html
> 
> Also have a think about how many hops you have in your path settings and
> whether it really needs to be as high as you have it set. If all your
want
> is to make it to an I-gate then have a look at your 48hour log down
> loadable from here http://france.aprs2.net/ and see if you can shorten
> your beacon path and still make it. A one hop reduction can make a big
> difference for everbody trying to use the frequency.
> 
> 
> Mike, VK2INT.
> 
> 
> 
> Re: [OZAPRS] European v US new paradigm and path limiting
> 
> Actually, I believe that your second paragraph answer your first
> paragraph. A very big reason that I see for us to change is that almost
> all APRS software, hardware and websites originate in either the US or
> Europe, and they will all be saying "Use these settings". Anyone setting
> up equipment for the first time is going to be really confused, we've
> seen it here in New Zealand recently.
> 
> The new paradigm also enables the popular KPC3+ TNCs to be 100%
> successful as APRS digipeaters instead of suffering from lack of
> duplicate suppression when either plain RELAY or WIDE are used.
> 
> Locally, we have some home stations using RELAY as their first digi hop
> setting because (I think) paths seem to be such a confusing issue for
> many users. A standard WIDE1-1,WIDEn-N for trackers and WIDEn-N for home
> stations would be so simple, and the tracing of paths will help network
> analysis and monitoring.
> 
> 73 David ZL3AI.
> 
> 
> To: ozaprs at aprs.net.au
> Message-ID: <20061030040523.70F065F40E2 at smtp-2.paradise.net.nz>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> 
> Hi Ben and others,
> 
> > Its a pity that we have to change things that really are not broken,
> just
> > because a few people cant get it right or wont listen.
> 
> > This might seem a strange question, but why do we have to change? The
US
> and
> > EU have a far larger population of Hams than we will ever dream of in
> our
> > life time.
> 
> > Ben Lindner
> > VK5JFK
> 
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