[OZAPRS] European v US new paradigm and path limiting +confusion....

[Mike Townsend]

Confusion, Spot on. I got involved in this aspect of the hobby
approximately 9 months ago. I even but up an aerial at home for the first
time in years because this looked interesting. Something new to bite my
teeth into. But it is only recently that I've come to terms with the
potential of this system and its shortcomings. 
This is through wading through a heap of conflicting information from the
net and watching RF traffic here home. 

My first port of call on the net for setting up my equipment for APRS here
in VK2 being  http://vk2.aprs.net.au/ and this is where the confusion
begins on one page we have this, 

DO
So now, as a user, needing to choose a path to digi your packets through,
what should you use? Initially, set your UNPROTO path to RELAY (see your
program docs for info on how to do this). Once you see some stations
appear on your map, see who you can hear directly using the DIGI,
PROTOPATH or DIRECT STATIONS list in your software. Can you hear a WIDE
directly? If so, change your UNPROTO path to WIDE (or WIDE,WIDE if you
want to go two hops). If not, and you can work a RELAY directly; try
RELAY,WIDE (or RELAY,WIDE,WIDE).

and this,

DON'T use more than 3 hops. 3 hops will give you coverage of approximately
250Km line of sight. 
    Example paths: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE  /  VK2THE-1,WIDE,WIDE  /
VK2KVK-1,VK2RMR-1,WIDE  /  RELAY,WIDE3-3  /  VK2TPH-1,WIDE3-3

followed by this,

 For Eastern Sydney Suburbs:
Fixed station: VK2JPJ-1, WIDE2-2

Mobile station: RELAY, WIDE2-2

For Western Sydney Suburbs and Lower Blue Mountains:

Fixed station: VK2RSW-1, WIDE2-2

Mobile station: RELAY, WIDE2-2

For the Illawarra area:

Fixed station: VK2AMW-1, WIDE2-2

Mobile station: RELAY,WIDE2-2

For the South Coast (Batemans Bay area):

Fixed station: VK2AMW-2, WIDE2-2

Mobile station: RELAY,WIDE2-2

For the Central Coast:

Fixed station: VK2RAG-1, WIDE2-2

Mobile station: RELAY,WIDE2-2

For the Central West:

Fixed station: WIDE

Mobile station: RELAY,WIDE2-2

For the Newcastle area:

Fixed station: WIDE

Mobile station: RELAY,WIDE2-2

For the Riverina:

Fixed station: VK2CSU-1, WIDE2-2

Mobile station: RELAY,WIDE2-2

Here they are talking about using and then not using the same paths all on
the one page. 
Also how long has it been since VK2RSW  has been on air? 
At least the recommended paths for VK2, knowing what I know now, are what
should be in common use. RELAY,WIDE2-2 in NSW if we are going to persist
with using RELAY.
But what do I see on air in common use RELAY,WIDE3-3, 4 hops. This surely
isn't necessary when with the present I-Gates you are usually no more than
two hops away from one.

Then looking overseas I start reading about the new n-n paradigm, more
confusion to start with, but the more you read the more it makes sense. It
makes sense from the point that anyone new to APRS when researching it on
the net will most likely come across this information from a US web site
that is of course pushing the new n-n paradigm and if like me they read
about this and understand what BOB, WB4APR is trying to acheive you soon
come to the conclusion that what we are doing here in Australia has had
its day. Plus its SIMPLE. No need to wrap your brain around RELAY, WIDE,
TRACE, WIDEn-n or TRACEn-n as a newcomer while wondering why your not
making it into digi because maybe your path is wrong or because of the, as
then unknown, inefficiencies of the network. Or maybe you are just under
or over deviating the radio  My closest digi at the time was VK2JPJ-1 at a
distance of 40km and this is what I had to wade my way through. I was a
little foolish as well to think my MAXON w
 ith approx 4W O/P would have a chance even with everything set up
correctly. Even changing to the mobile with 50W didn't help much driving
around the SW suburbs. I couldn't figure why others seemed to consistently
make it while I struggled. Then I went RF rx at home and that was soon
answered by watching what was going on with there beacon rates. Plus the
Internet to RF feed passing through VK2JPJ-1 was helping either.

With the new paradigm there is just the one path setting as a newcomer to
understand, WIDEn-n.

The new paradigm with the change over of VK3 to 145.175MHz makes sense for
network efficiency. 

Full traceability and duplicate packet checking for WIDEn-n preferably
with a 3 hop limit. For mobiles WIDE1-1,WIDE2-2 or home WIDE3-3, I like to
have a look from time to time and see where my packets have bouncing
around the network and now use TRACEn-n as my beacon path. 

State based FLOODING. In VK7 they use TASn-n, why not NSWn-n or QLDn-n etc
etc. If somebody wants to light up the State with his beacon, let him or
she do it, but lets try and confine it to the State they are in. 

Lets make it simple for the newcomers and even without a change to the new
paradigm we could make a start with updating the VK2 APRS web pages to
remove the inconsistencies and errors. 
If the other states have similar web pages could the administrators have a
look and see if they need a workover to reflect what is actually happening
in your area.

I know for some this is all old hat for some and there are those who think
nothing needs to change but if its been a while since you have read up on
the subject please consider having a look at this.

http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/aprs/fix14439.html

Also have a think about how many hops you have in your path settings and
whether it really needs to be as high as you have it set. If all your want
is to make it to an I-gate then have a look at your 48hour log down
loadable from here http://france.aprs2.net/ and see if you can shorten
your beacon path and still make it. A one hop reduction can make a big
difference for everbody trying to use the frequency.


Mike, VK2INT.



Re: [OZAPRS] European v US new paradigm and path limiting

Actually, I believe that your second paragraph answer your first
paragraph. A very big reason that I see for us to change is that almost
all APRS software, hardware and websites originate in either the US or
Europe, and they will all be saying "Use these settings". Anyone setting
up equipment for the first time is going to be really confused, we've
seen it here in New Zealand recently.

The new paradigm also enables the popular KPC3+ TNCs to be 100%
successful as APRS digipeaters instead of suffering from lack of
duplicate suppression when either plain RELAY or WIDE are used.

Locally, we have some home stations using RELAY as their first digi hop
setting because (I think) paths seem to be such a confusing issue for
many users. A standard WIDE1-1,WIDEn-N for trackers and WIDEn-N for home
stations would be so simple, and the tracing of paths will help network
analysis and monitoring.

73 David ZL3AI.


To: ozaprs at aprs.net.au
Message-ID: <20061030040523.70F065F40E2 at smtp-2.paradise.net.nz>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Hi Ben and others,

> Its a pity that we have to change things that really are not broken,
just
> because a few people cant get it right or wont listen.

> This might seem a strange question, but why do we have to change? The US
and
> EU have a far larger population of Hams than we will ever dream of in
our
> life time.

> Ben Lindner
> VK5JFK

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