[OZAPRS] Richard's comments following on mine (and more) ...

Ron and Val Smith rsmitj at tpgi.com.au
Sat May 29 06:40:45 EST 2004


Hi All,

As I said the other day, let's not get carried away here.
At the moment if I look at useful signals where is there a problem with
digipeating?  Changing from 95% no signals to 94% no signals is hardly
causing interference and band congestion.
We should be supporting each other in whatever experimenting and gaining
of
knowledge we want to do, not putting artificial barriers in the way.
Barriers chase people away.
I now exactly how it feels with APRS by yourself. At least now I have some
listeners locally but no other senders yet.
When I travel from home to Brisbane there is no mobile phone coverage for
70% of the trip, GSM or CDMA.  Except for about 70km I do have 2m voice
coverage for high powered rigs.  Of the 600km there is only 80km with vhf
aprs coverage.  So for me, HF sounds like a good idea to experiment with.
My
wife worries about driver fatigue on these trips and it is conforting to
see
my position pop up on the computer screen from time to time.  Yes, it is
comforting to hear a beacon come back indicating the beacon has made it to
the network.  This is important when you don't have access to the network
to
see it come out on vhf/uhf.
A month or so ago I asked if there was any interest in trying to cover the
Brisbane Gladstone Yacht Race next year. I received no reply. I am very
well
aware of many practical difficulties.  However, it would be an excellent
opportunity to try various network configurations as there is no APRS
network along the route except at the start and the finish. As just ideas
maybe we could experiment with mobile repeaters receiving on vhf and
sending
on hf on coastal high points (The race does hug the coast only going no
more
that 30km off shore). Maybe we look at using the safety boat, I think it
is
the sail training vessel "South Passage", which follows the fleet as a
digi
vhf to hf.  Maybe both. Maybe something else.
I am not using this posting to promote the race but rather simply making
the
point that to keep interest we need to encourage those who want to be
different and not jump on them for being non-conventional.  Isn't that
what
experimentaion is about?

There are just so many possibilites and it is the variations that we
should
support.

I think it is exciting to see various configurations, locations, mobile,
fixed, digipeating back on hf, gating to i'net, repeating to vhf, uhf
linking at baud higher rates, establishing state coverage networks,
travelling to remote areas, etc, etc.

Ok, off my soapbox, and going back into my shell.

Cheers
Ron
vk4ags

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Terry Neumann" <tfn at rbe.net.au>
To: <ozaprs at marconi.ics.mq.edu.au>
Sent: Friday, 28 May 2004 14:08 PM
Subject: [OZAPRS] Richard's comments following on mine (and more) ...


> G'day Richard and others,
>
> Thanks Richard for your comments.  I appreciate the points you have
> raised.  There is a challenge in there too, so I'll continue on if I
may...
>
> >As we are talking of HF here we need to keep in mind the natural
> >characteristics of HF operations which means we have to think on an
> >international level for APRS operations on this frequency. Even if you
> >are not able to here (may be not able to decode) the other 101
> >(hundreds) operators they are on the same frequency as you are they may
> >be able to here your signal due to conditions or their super dooper
> >sensitive installation.
> >
> >There have been several emails sent from US and European stations to
> >VK3MY providing signal reports for VK3MY-4 some of the stations that
> >have sent reports are not received by VK3MY-4.
> >
> >
> Fair enough.    However 10.147 (or thereabouts) like much of the rest of
> the band has a huge number of signals on it - not all of them of amateur
> origin. The latter examples serve to completely obliterate any
> underlying APRS signals.   My point is that given this, it's unlikely
> that international APRS signals are likely to be a very big
> consideration for either us or them.   Even in my country location free
> from computers and RFI devices other than my own, it's hard to really
> make much of the weaker signals which are there.   I must listen more
> carefully out on the tractor at some time where the only interference is
> from the John Deere electronics.   Certainly there are DX signals there,
> but they are weak - too weak to be usable in APRS work in my obervation.
> I'm often fascinated by the CW contacts I can hear in the background
> under local phone QSO's on 10.120.
>
> Of course I only listen during the day - my experience with 10 megs is
> that come the darkness hours, other non amateur signals make it a lost
> cause.  I'll  have a try at leaving things on  for a few nights and see
> what  happens.   OK  - Richard, leave it at  "hundreds" but  perhaps
> include " world wide" ;-)
>
> >The main aim of APRS HF is to track moving objects. APRS was designed
> >to be a real-time tactical and emergency object tracking system. On HF
> >we are very limited in our data band width (through put) it is 1/4 of
> >the VHF band width with potentially a much much greater coverage area.
> >Why use this valuable band with to display boring objects that don't
> >move. As you state below your main interest is watching VK3BYD travel
> >around the country side.
> >
> >
> Agreed, but at this stage even stationary objects - eg - VK5ATN home
> station - position once every hour (4.5 seconds on air) - serves to
> provide icons on a screen , essential I feel to promote interest from
> first timers looking in on what it's all about.   As more stations come
> up - sure,  lets close down non-moving non relay stations, but it's not
> a major issue at present.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >>This mode will never attract significant numbers of other users if we
> >>don't
> >>make it as interesting as we can whilst people who might be
> >>interested look in at the SWL stage.
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
> >I disagree, the main reason people will not use HF APRS is the lack of
> >a guaranteed Gate infrastructure where whey need it. People want to be
> >able to get their position on to the internet so that others be it
> >family or friends can see where they are and more importantly that they
> >are safe. HF APRS will provide good position information to families of
> >OutBack travellers via the internet (you don't have to be an amateur)
if
> >we have a well designed and reliable Gate system.
> >
> >
> Hmmm...... Well that raises a very interesting point which  I've
> discussed at length with an innovative amateur friend here in VK5 who is
> usually always in at the ground level with a new mode.   He won't have a
> thing to do with APRS even (and perhaps especially) at VHF.   The
> reason?   He says that the fact that APRS is so generously available to
> non amateur audience, creates a situation where his mobile beacons
> observed when he is far from home, telegraph to undesirables that it's
> now OK to go to his home and check out the back shed.   Paranoia?
> perhaps, but realistic too.      It's a question each of us must answer
> for himself.    Personally, I no longer run VHF APRS unless I am
> returning to my home - I never use it on the outward leg.      And while
> I'm fascinated by the possibility of my occasional outback adventures
> being able to seen by members of my family, the  indications from what
> I've seen so far from HF APRS are that it wouldn't be reliable enough to
> be taken seriously.   Unfair, unkind ? Perhaps.  Don't forget that we,
> as amateurs are prepared to accept  that these are experiments and the
> variability of propogation and other factors which can determine the
> success or otherwise of the exercise..
>
> Personally I'd prefer to use some other means to keep my family
> informed.  There are quite a few.  That doesn't mean that I'm not
> prepared to try HF mobile APRS  in the future.   That will be covered in
> the next point.
>
> >>From experience I could not get many people interested in VHF APRS in
> >VK3 until I was able to establish a few digipeaters for people to use.
> >It's not much fun talking to yourself.
> >
> >The 4WD HF radio network is very popular because it is guaranteed
> >reliable system that offers good services.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Exactly.
>
> >>It's about positions on a map at
> >>this early stage;
> >>
> >>
> >
> >It sure is so why not get mobile on APRS HF?
> >
> >
> It's a question involving three factors.   Money, time, and perception
> of reward (degree of satistfaction).    I can probably get the latest HF
> TT3 chip from Darryl,  put it in my existing TT box and fit it in either
> of my two HF mobile stations (with some extensive fiddling).   Or I can
> save up and buy a  Kam box from Ross and use that.  However I need to
> stay married too?  ("how much did that cost????!!")  (Married members of
> the list will understand).
>
> Time is also a factor in all of these issues.   I need to prioritize how
> much I spend on the hobby, and where it's likely to be the most
> rewarding.   Which leads onto the next issue.
>
> The third point is the perhaps puzzling statement "perception of
> reward".   Of all of the various aspects of amateur radio I've explored
> in the past 24 years, APRS is the one which requires the "strangest"
> motivation to remain interested, especially for the solo amateur in
> isolation from clubs and others.   Quite simply, it's a one way activity
> - there is no feedback at all unless you have a team of friends to keep
> you informed as to how you are going.  I can't be mobile, and watch my
> station back home at the same time.  It's even more remote in some
> respects than running a propagation beacon on 6 metres.  You simply have
> no means of knowing if it's of any use at all.
>
> One slightly oblique aspect of the digipeating aspect discussed in past
> days here is that any mobile station who might have been operating at
> the time, and was monitoring the frequency would receive some degree of
> assurance on hearing the digipeat immediately following his own
> transmission.    That's not a reason for it to continue, but simply an
> observation on the facts - I know I've used the same principle in
> confirming the viability and strength of my own mobile beacons on VHF.
>
> The lack of immediate feedback to the mobile user is one reason why this
> group is so important in keeping the interest up.   And why it's so
> important to keep feeding reports back into the system.  I have seen
> quite few stations come and go on VHF APRS in the SA area.   There are
> very few stayers (with the obvious exception of Andrew and Tony) I
> suspect that lack of feedback and therefore personal satisfaction are
> the reasons.  It could also have something to do with the very first
> point I raised, although I can't be sure.
>
> So one day, you may see a VK5ATN mobile icon on your  HF screens.  It
> probably won't be on the tractor though.   All day at 8.5 kph in the
> same area is hardly captivating viewing....
>
> I am looking forward to Andrew's trip out bush  however.  It will be a
> fascinating experiment in all that this mode offers.
>
> Just the lengthy thoughts of an amateur in comparative isolation,
> Thanks for reading,
> 73
> Terry
> VK5ATN
>
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