Hi Ray,<div><br></div><div>We went through some changes in Spain not long ago. If I remember correctly, the last status was:</div><div><br></div><div>- We had three categories (EA, EB and EC) corresponding to different privileges. That merged into a single, advanced category. All or nothing.</div><div><br></div><div>- The Regulator (not third parties) organizes the proficiency test, four times a year. They issue the callsigns, too. Clubs conduct trainings for those who cannot (or don't want) study on their own.</div><div><br></div><div>- You pay for your license only once, but every five years you have to let the Regulator know that you are still alive and want to keep your callsign.</div><div><br></div><div>- We got 60 meters the week after being announced by ITU. There are some rules in place to manage potential collisions with the military (pretty much symbolic, most are on SATCOM)</div><div><br></div><div>- Less than a month ago one letter callsigns were approved due to popular demand (i.e. EA4X)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>73,</div><div>Carlos VK1EA</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br>On Sunday, December 22, 2019, vk2tv <<a href="mailto:vk2tv@exemail.com.au">vk2tv@exemail.com.au</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div>
    <font face="Arial">Thanks Norm.<br>
      <br>
      I see that document was released just 3 weeks ago, and it seems to
      be a great concept. I hope that any outcomes, especially for the
      Foundation callsign debacle, aren't years away.<br>
      <br>
      I wonder how many others, like me, hadn't considered the
      possibility of ALL callsigns coming from the same pool?
      Interesting concept, and off the top of my head I can't see
      anything wrong with it. Thanks for thinking outside the box.<br>
      <br>
      Ray vk2tv<br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div>On 21/12/19 5:38 pm, Norm McMillan
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>Here we go.</div>
        <div><a href="https://www.wia.org.au/newsevents/news/2019/20191130-20/index.php" target="_blank">https://www.wia.org.au/<wbr>newsevents/news/2019/20191130-<wbr>20/index.php</a></div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>IMHO, we're never going to run out of VKN*** callsigns, so
          lets utilise what we have. I'm not sure we need to diff.
          between licence classes as the info is available online. There
          are known failings with the old system, X** and Z** tech calls
          being one, N** novice calls another. Funny they had the same
          root; licence class disestablished and callsign into the
          general pool. I like the idea of a callsign for life too.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Off soapbox</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>norm vk3xci<br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Dec 21, 2019 at 4:51
          PM Graeme <<a href="mailto:graeme@abrona.com.au" target="_blank">graeme@abrona.com.au</a>> wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
          <div dir="ltr">
            <div dir="ltr">
              <div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri";color:rgb(0,0,0)">
                <div>Any formal solution needs to cater for VK0F..
                  through VK9F, not just dropping the 3 in VK3F. 
                  Abbreviating by omitting the digit risks producing
                  clashes locally.</div>
                <div> </div>
                <div>Graeme VK2HFG</div>
                <div style="font-size:small;text-decoration:none;font-family:"Calibri";font-weight:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;display:inline">
                  <div style="font:10pt tahoma">
                    <div> </div>
                    <div style="background:rgb(245,245,245) none repeat scroll 0% 0%">
                      <div><b>From:</b> <a title="vk2tv@exemail.com.au">vk2tv</a> </div>
                      <div><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 21, 2019 4:25
                        PM</div>
                      <div><b>To:</b> <a title="ozaprs@aprs.net.au">oz >> Australian
                          APRS Users</a> </div>
                      <div><b>Subject:</b> [OZAPRS] Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re:
                        Foundation and RF APRS new thread</div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <div> </div>
                </div>
                <div style="font-size:small;text-decoration:none;font-family:"Calibri";font-weight:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;display:inline"><font face="Arial">I'm a slow learner, ticked the wrong
                    box again. Ho hum!</font><br>
                  <div><br>
                    <br>
                    -------- Forwarded Message --------
                    <table style="color:rgb(0,0,0)" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
                      <tbody>
                        <tr>
                          <th valign="baseline" nowrap align="right">Subject: </th>
                          <td>Re: [OZAPRS] Fwd: Re: Foundation and RF
                            APRS new thread</td>
                        </tr>
                        <tr>
                          <th valign="baseline" nowrap align="right">Date: </th>
                          <td>Sat, 21 Dec 2019 16:24:49 +1100</td>
                        </tr>
                        <tr>
                          <th valign="baseline" nowrap align="right">From: </th>
                          <td>vk2tv <a>mailto:vk2tv@exemail.com.au</a></td>
                        </tr>
                        <tr>
                          <th valign="baseline" nowrap align="right">To: </th>
                          <td>Carlos PECO BERROCAL <a>mailto:carlos.peco@gmail.com</a></td>
                        </tr>
                      </tbody>
                    </table>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    <font face="Arial">Hi Carlos,<br>
                      <br>
                      I got my information from here </font><br>
                    <font face="Arial"><a href="https://rsgb.org/main/operating/licensing-novs-visitors/international-prefixes/" target="_blank">https://rsgb.org/main/<wbr>operating/licensing-novs-<wbr>visitors/international-<wbr>prefixes/</a><br>
                      <br>
                      and here <br>
                    </font><font face="Arial"><a href="https://www.qrz.com/atlas" target="_blank">https://www.qrz.com/atlas 
                      </a>(enter Panama in the search box)<br>
                      <br>
                      I did search for a full example of a 3F callsign
                      but didn't find one.<br>
                      <br>
                      You could be right but I think that a permanent
                      and sensible solution to the Foundation callsign
                      debacle is the preferred route to take.  <br>
                      <br>
                      I suggested VI and you suggest AX but in
                      retrospect I see a problem with both of them in
                      that if any amateur can use VI or AX for special
                      occasions, logically the entire VI or AX blocks
                      are already be "allocated". <br>
                      <br>
                      I've been messing about looking for a temporary
                      solution for Jack and using an ALIAS instead of a
                      callsign seems to tick all the boxes.<br>
                      <br>
                      1. In an instance of xastir I used the ALIAS
                      VKFTVZ as the station "callsign" . In the
                      "Comment" box I put "vk2tv APRS test" (beacon text
                      in other systems)<br>
                      2. I created a passcode for the ALIAS, VKFTVZ and
                      entered that in the interface control box of
                      xastir<br>
                      3. I was able to send my normal xastir instance on
                      another machine a message and from that machine I
                      sent a reply. All good.<br>
                      4. <a href="http://aprs.fi" target="_blank">aprs.fi</a> shows the
                      ALIAS and the beacon that was sent ... </font><font face="Arial"><font size="+3"><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;white-space:nowrap;word-spacing:0px;text-transform:none;float:none;font-weight:400;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;display:inline;letter-spacing:normal;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-indent:0px">2019-12-21
                          16:03:42 AEDT:<span> </span></span><b style="font-size:12px;font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;white-space:nowrap;word-spacing:0px;text-transform:none;font-weight:700;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;letter-spacing:normal;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-indent:0px"><a style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(0,0,255);outline-style:none;background-color:transparent" href="https://aprs.fi/?c=raw&limit=&call=VKFTVZ" target="_blank">VKFTVZ</a></b></font><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;white-space:nowrap;word-spacing:0px;text-transform:none;float:none;font-weight:400;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;display:inline;letter-spacing:normal;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-indent:0px"><font size="+1">>APX215,TCPIP*,<wbr>qAC,T2TAS:=3102.12S/15252.72E`<wbr>vk2tv
                          APRS test<br>
                          5. The use of an ALIAS (maximum of 6
                          characters to met the AZ25 spec) should pass
                          unimpeded through Igates. And FWIW, an ALIAS
                          can have an SSID, just like a callsign can.<br>
                        </font><br>
                        <font size="+1">On the surface this method seems
                          to solve Jack's problem of using a callsign
                          (ALIAS, actually) that resembles his real
                          callsign</font>, <font size="+1">sends his
                          real callsign in the beacon, satisfies <a href="http://aprs.fi" target="_blank">aprs.fi</a>,<br>
                          lets him appear on <a href="http://aprs.fi" target="_blank">aprs.fi</a>,
                          and meet his licencing obligations. <br>
                          <br>
                          What more could he want except for the ACMA to
                          sort of the callsign debacle they created?<br>
                          <br>
                          HTH<br>
                          Ray vk2tv<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                        </font></span></font>
                    <div>On 21/12/19 2:56 pm, Carlos PECO BERROCAL
                      wrote:<br>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote type="cite">hi Ray,
                      <div> </div>
                      <div>So I looked into the Panama callsigns... they
                        all have a number after the prefix.</div>
                      <div> </div>
                      <div>So an alphanumeric combination like 3FABC
                        does not match any amateur callsign anywhere in
                        the world. Happy to be proven wrong.</div>
                      <div> </div>
                      <div>Foundation calls would be better using a
                        different prefix, like AX. They would attract
                        more attention from hams overseas.</div>
                      <div> </div>
                      <div> </div>
                      <div>cheers</div>
                      <div>Carlos VK1EA</div>
                      <div><br>
                        <br>
                        On Saturday, December 21, 2019, vk2tv <<a>vk2tv@exemail.com.au</a>>
                        wrote:<br>
                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="padding-left:1ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex">
                          <div><font face="Arial">Ticked the wrong box
                              and sent this only to Norm.</font><br>
                            <div><br>
                              <br>
                              -------- Forwarded Message --------
                              <table style="color:rgb(0,0,0)" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
                                <tbody>
                                  <tr>
                                    <th valign="baseline" nowrap align="right">Subject:
                                    </th>
                                    <td>Re: [OZAPRS] Foundation and RF
                                      APRS new thread</td>
                                  </tr>
                                  <tr>
                                    <th valign="baseline" nowrap align="right">Date:
                                    </th>
                                    <td>Sat, 21 Dec 2019 13:49:08 +1100</td>
                                  </tr>
                                  <tr>
                                    <th valign="baseline" nowrap align="right">From:
                                    </th>
                                    <td>vk2tv <a>mailto:vk2tv@exemail.com.au</a></td>
                                  </tr>
                                  <tr>
                                    <th valign="baseline" nowrap align="right">To:
                                    </th>
                                    <td>Norm McMillan <a>mailto:vk3xci@gmail.com</a></td>
                                  </tr>
                                </tbody>
                              </table>
                              <br>
                              <br>
                              <font face="Arial">Given the international
                                use of APRS, aprs-is and sites like <a href="http://aprs.fi" target="_blank">aprs.fi</a>, a
                                3F callsign has the potential to cause a
                                problem. Would you like YOUR callsign
                                appearing on <a href="http://aprs.fi" target="_blank">aprs.fi</a>
                                if you didn't initiate it? We shouldn't
                                be trying to fix one problem by creating
                                other problems.<br>
                                <br>
                                I don't see having the callsign as an
                                object as problematic, per se, but the
                                aprs-is authorisation to allow a station
                                to send an object is based on the
                                callsign (without SSID) that's set in
                                the config file (certainly for xastir
                                and Direwolf). Whilst that config file
                                "might" accept a callsign longer than 6
                                characters, and so might <a href="http://aprs.is" target="_blank">aprs.is</a> we
                                eventually hit the AX25 specification
                                conflict that will probably drop an
                                improperly formatted source station
                                address - a letter appearing in the
                                numerical -only SSID field -, or maybe
                                corrupt the callsign therein. <br>
                                <br>
                              </font>Australian amateurs can use vk, vi
                              or ax, under prescribed circumstances so
                              maybe something along the lines of an
                              extension of the (say) VI prefix to allow
                              Foundation licencees to use it would be a
                              simple solution - Jack could become
                              VI3JTS, as an example. Perhaps the use of
                              a data friendly callsign could be optional
                              for stations who need it. I'm just tossing
                              ideas into the air, we need to start
                              somewhere to resolve the mess.<br>
                              <br>
                              Can anyone confirm/deny that the WIA is
                              actually working with the ACMA on a
                              solution, or is everyone waiting for
                              somebody else to start the ball rolling?
                              Just curious. If the ball isn't already
                              rolling, maybe we from this group should
                              start its journey. Maybe Jack should
                              contact his local federal member of
                              parliament, asking him to find out why the
                              ACMA permitted the use of data by
                              Foundation licencees but kept a callsign
                              structure that prevents that happening in
                              practice. Take it up with the
                              Anti-Discrimination Commissioner, there
                              must be a disabled Foundation licencee who
                              wants to use Packet/APRS but can't because
                              the callsign structure discriminates
                              against him/her. Play it for all it's
                              worth. We have both the power and the
                              right to make a noise about this and we
                              shouldn't have to wait years for a result.
                              <br>
                              <br>
                              Soapbox safely stowed away ... for now<span><span>:-)</span></span><br>
                              <br>
                              Ray vk2tv<br>
                              <br>
                              <div>On 21/12/19 12:59 pm, Norm McMillan
                                wrote:<br>
                              </div>
                              <blockquote type="cite">
                                <div dir="ltr">
                                  <div>Hmmmm,</div>
                                  <div>looks like all the nF... prefixes
                                    are internationally allocated, is
                                    that going to cause a problem?</div>
                                  <div>The proper answer of course, is
                                    to get rid of the 4 letter suffix,
                                    the numerical area id suffix, and
                                    have a "callsign for life"</div>
                                  <div>Like that's going to happen!</div>
                                  <div> </div>
                                  <div>For now, I'll tell users to use
                                    nFxxx and put a callsign in the
                                    comment line. It's all we've got
                                    'till someone tell me different.</div>
                                  <div> </div>
                                  <div>norm vk3xci<br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div> </div>
                                  <div>norm vk3xci!<br>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                                <div> </div>
                                <div class="gmail_quote">
                                  <div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On
                                    Sat, Dec 21, 2019 at 11:34 AM Josh
                                    <<a>vk2hff@vk2hff.ampr.org</a>>
                                    wrote:<br>
                                  </div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="padding-left:1ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex">Hi Norm,<br>
                                    <br>
                                    On 21/12/2019 10:30 am, Norm
                                    McMillan wrote:<br>
                                    > Someone with more knowledge
                                    than I might like to comment on the<br>
                                    > legality of both cases? I'm not
                                    an APRSdroid user so I don't know if<br>
                                    > it's possible to put a comment
                                    with a callsign in APRSdroid.<br>
                                    Yes, APRSdroid allows a custom
                                    comment but defaults to the
                                    aprsdroid URL<br>
                                    if no comment is provided.<br>
                                    Regarding legality, there is no
                                    requirement to identify yourself on<br>
                                    every transmission.<br>
                                    And your ID doesn't have to be sent
                                    via AX.25 - sending your full<br>
                                    callsign via CW (or voice etc) once
                                    every 10 minutes would fulfill the<br>
                                    requirement, providing it was sent
                                    on the same frequency as your APRS<br>
                                    transmissions - not that I'd
                                    recommend this option.<br>
                                    <br>
                                    Including your callsign in your APRS
                                    beacon comment field would<br>
                                    obviously also meet the
                                    requirement.  From ACMA's
                                    perspective your APRS<br>
                                    object name does not have to match
                                    your callsign - that's just our<br>
                                    convention for position beacons.<br>
                                    ><br>
                                    > Another question... would a
                                    3F*** call be gated IS to RF? Guess
                                    it<br>
                                    > depends on the software etc.<br>
                                    ><br>
                                    That comes down to each individual
                                    igate's configuration.<br>
                                    As an example, mine won't gate any
                                    objects from IS to RF except for<br>
                                    messages for nearby stations
                                    recently heard directly via RF, or
                                    WXSVR-AU<br>
                                    alerts within my igate's area. The
                                    callsign makes no difference.<br>
                                    <br>
                                    IMO the best approach for F calls is
                                    to set their callsign field to<br>
                                    nFxxx, and include their full
                                    callsign in the comment field.<br>
                                    <br>
                                    - Josh VK2HFF<br>
                                    <br>
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                                  </blockquote>
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                                <br>
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</pre>
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                              <br>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
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</pre>
                    </blockquote>
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      <pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
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</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div>

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