[OZAPRS] Higher beacon rate HF versus VHF?

Rob Heyer vk2xic at yahoo.com.au
Sun Apr 5 21:41:10 EST 2009


Ray,
I read your note to David with great interest. The point you expressed " I can only say that to take a
few prediction charts and a couple of days testing as indicative of the
predictability or long term viability of any band is pure folly."
I could not agree more.

With this statement "What comes first the mobiles or the network. I won't
install a ##m Igate because there are no users, and I won't use ##m for
aprs because there are no Igates." I feel that you are expressin the need for a stragic approach and to develop a clear parth to achieve 'the goal' of a network of gates across the country. (I have a vision that by the continual development with a planed approah, APRS could cover this large country from north to south and from west to east, with the inclusion of New Zealand and the 'Pond.' 

Does a 'development plan' exist? If it does I would be very happy to receive a copy, as it will give me a better idear where to commit my small funds and give me a base to develop a plan for a station.
If there isn't a plan, then I believe that this ought to be a major starting point. Get direction for what we want to do, where we want to take it, how do we get there and in the most cost effective way.

 

73's 

Rob Heyer 

IRLP VK2RMP Node No. 6018 (146.850 MHz) 
  APRS - VK2XIC QTH; VK2XIC-4 Bicycle; VK2XIC-9 Car; VK2XIC-12 Portable
  Member - WIA  & IARS
              - SES (Shellharbour City)  
Eat Australian lamb a 1,000,000 Dingos can't be wrong !

--- On Tue, 31/3/09, Ray Wells <vk2tv at exemail.com.au> wrote:

From: Ray Wells <vk2tv at exemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: [OZAPRS] Higher beacon rate HF versus VHF?
To: "Australian APRS Users" <ozaprs at aprs.net.au>
Received: Tuesday, 31 March, 2009, 6:01 PM




  
David,



I wouldn't look on your role as playing backstop, I think that's
selling alternative networks short.



Provided we can muster up the operators who are prepared to install
either, or both, 20m and 40m equipment, knowing it may get little use,
I think we can end up with a damn fine arps network for the amateur
radio service, to quote Dave Horsfall. Hope I didn't mess up
your name Dave, I sometimes do :-)



One of the things amateur operators frequently maintain is that they're
available in an emergency. Having spent 20 years as a WICEN region
coordinator I have to say that apart from the dedicated handful, that's
largely a load of rubbish. However, if we start to take a leaf from our
US cousins who actively involve APRS in emergency situations, AND we
can provide an almost bullet-proof HF network, we may be on to
something that will place the amateur service in good stead. We sure as
hell need to try.



We probably have a bit of chicken or egg situation with alternative
bands for aprs. What comes first the mobiles or the network. I won't
install a ##m Igate because there are no users, and I won't use ##m for
aprs because there are no Igates.



It's all too easy to be complacent with the 30m network because we know
it works well, with great coverage. (BTW, I logged a ZS station on 30m
last night). In years gone by it was only full calls who had access to
20m, 30m and 40m so why not stick with a proven quantity?



The new licencing arrangements that give 20m and 40m access to a new
group of potential aprs users has moved the ballpark and we need to
adapt. With the potential for higher (than previously) numbers of aprs
operators who can use 20m and 40m (but not 30m), the incentive for
Igates on the other bands is so much greater than ever before.



Like all things, they take time to evolve. The current discussion on
alternative bands for HF aprs has already drawn from the woodwork
stations we don't otherwise hear from on this list. There is obviously
considerable interest outside of the mainstream few. 



David is keen on 40m because he's seen some encouraging results there.
Having been a user of HF mobile since 1979 (and HF packet since
1997/8), and having operated HF mobile in the areas of interest to
David, in and around the Simpson Desert, I can only say that to take a
few prediction charts and a couple of days testing as indicative of the
predictability or long term viability of any band is pure folly. That
is why I believe we should promote the installation of Igates on both
alternative bands, equally, so there is real choice and real
alternatives. Many of us have had good long distance results on 20m,
30m and 40m at one time or another.



Ray vk2tv









David and Justine Olsen wrote:
No doubt about it Rob, 30m is where most of the effort
should go. Me I will play backstop on 40m
  

  

  

On 31 Mar 2009, at 15:14, Rob Heyer wrote:
  

  

  Ray,
    

Hi, I believe you have made a number of good points in your note.
    

    

I don't say much on APRS (OZAPRS) because I have a lot to learn and
feel 'we' as amateur's need to hasten slowly on the HF issue; look and
learn (good and bad stuff) from those who have made there mark.
    

    

We will have a wonderful safety system for those who need it, if we
keep our heads.
    

    

Me, I'm working towards 30M and think we couldn't have a better band
for APRS than 30M.
    

    

For what it is worth!
    

    

73's
    

    

Rob Heyer
    

    

IRLP VK2RMP Node No. 6018 (146.850 MHz)
    

  APRS - VK2XIC QTH; VK2XIC-4 Bicycle; VK2XIC-9 Car; VK2XIC-12 Portable
    

  Member - WIA  & IARS
    

              - SES (Shellharbour City)
    

Eat Australian lamb a 1,000,000 Dingos can't be wrong !
    

    

--- On Tue, 31/3/09, Ray Wells <vk2tv at exemail.com.au> wrote:
    

    

From: Ray Wells <vk2tv at exemail.com.au>
    

Subject: Re: [OZAPRS] Higher beacon rate HF versus VHF?
    

To: "Australian APRS Users" <ozaprs at aprs.net.au>
    

Received: Tuesday, 31 March, 2009, 7:30 AM
    

    

Hi David,
    

    

You need to remember that your geographical isolation in the middle of
nowhere doesn't place you any "further" from an HF Igate, as far as RF
is concerned, than if you were in the middle of a large city. And it is
feasible (but probably unlikely) that propagation is such that an
Australian Igate is the only one hearing US traffic on 30m, and they
have lots of it. I regularly receive beacons from two US stations (one
of them last night and both the night before), and I gated quite a
number of packets from a station yachting around the Caribbean a couple
of years ago.
    

    

Nobody can predict how far their HF signal will propagate. Prediction
charts are just that, predictions. A bit like the weather, and we know
how that can end up.
    

    

For HF, we have to consider ourselves as a part of the global network.
    

    

Discuss away, we all may stand to learn something as a result.
    

    

Ray vk2tv
    

    

David and Justine Olsen wrote:
    

    Hi Richard
      

      

My email answer may have seemed a bit short, that wasn't my intention.
      

      

I was just thinking that for HF APRS where the maximum range must
surely be limited compared to voice, that a worldwide standard on
beacon rates that seems like a good idea in heavily populated areas may
not be such a good idea in VK.
      

      

I was just contributing to the discussion that not only arrives at such
agreements, but also varies them in the same way as the Wide n.n 
change came about.
      

      

      

David
      

VK4MDX
      

      

      

On 30 Mar 2009, at 20:00, Richard Hoskin wrote:
      

      

      

Hi Dave,
        

        

I'm not really asking for agreement.
        

        

I was pointing out the recommended mobile HF beacon rate world standard
that
        

has been in place for over 15 years, and the reasons why.
        

        

We have a very good VHF APRS Network in Australia that is based on
standards
        

and cooperation.
        

        

Cheers
        

Richard
        

VK3JFK
        

        

        -----Original Message-----
          

From: ozaprs-bounces at aprs.net.au [mailto:ozaprs-bounces at aprs.net.au] On
          

Behalf Of David and Justine Olsen
          

Sent: Monday, 30 March 2009 8:12 PM
          

To: Australian APRS Users
          

Subject: Re: [OZAPRS] Higher beacon rate HF versus VHF?
          

          

Richard,
          

          

I am not sure I agree <snip snip>
          

          

          this results in a maximum of 7
stations being able to transmit per
            

minute.
            

          
          

          

You sure? They can transmit all they like. Given the poor Rx success
          

rate, they aren't going to cause a whole lot of problems if they
          

aren't heard by anyone.
          

          

          Lets see, HF APRS increases the
coverage area from roughly 200,000
            

Sq Km
            

using 3 hops to potentially 75 Million SQ KM.
            

          
          

          

          

Australia is different to elsewhere most that space has nobody in it.
          

          

          

          the maximum number of
            

stations that can be in a single APRS Gate's coverage area is 70
            

stations.
            

          
          

I wonder how many times you have seen 70 HF stations on APRS at once,
          

let alone in one iGate's coverage area.
          

          

          

David
          

VK4MDX
          

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