[OZAPRS] APRS on 30 metres HF (Robert Bruninga)

Fri Feb 9 12:38:25 EST 2007

> > 5) Packets originated as GATE,WIDE2-1 arrive as
GATE,DIGI,WIDE2*
> > and this implies that the originator took two hops on VHF in
> > violation of the receommendations. 
> 
> Two hops would look like GATE,DIGI,DIGI,WIDE2*?
> One hops would look like GATE,DIGI,WIDE2* or
>                           GATE,DIGI,WIDE1*

In an ideal world, but all it takes is one old WIDEn-N that does
not have the ID parameter set correctly and then one of the
digi's does not insert its callsign. Hence we see things like
DIGI1,WIDE3* all the time because 2 of the digi's did not ID.
And we have been fussing about fixing the ID parameter iin those
WIDEn-N digipeaters sinec 1999 and still see little progress.
Hence, one is never certain of what DIGI,WIDE2* means.  Was it 2
hops or one?  Impossible to tell in the real network.  Hence my
concern...

> What weight do you give problem 5?  If we can reduce 
> its weight through proper user education the scales 
> might tip the other way?

Yep, but since I have been fighting the ID problem for 8  years
with no progress, that is why I have given up on it and have the
concern of #5.  But then your area migh thave digi owners that
actually are on APRS and are responsive..

Thanks.  It is not an easy answer.
Bob

> >
> >> On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 01:29:55 +1100, Robert Bruninga
> >> <bruninga at usna.edu>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> Why WIDE1-1?
> >> >
> >> > See HF.TXT.
> >> >
> >> > Because all HF packets in the world using the path of VIA
> >> > GATE,WIDE1-1, have the potential to enter ALL local VHF
> > networks
> >> > all over the world.  This is OK, when they get gated into
a
> >> > local
> >> > network *locally*.
> >> >
> >> > But if those same HF operators use the path of VIA
> >> > GATE,WIDE2-2, then there are two BIG problems:  1) they
> > would be
> >> > multiplying their potential presence in *every* local
area
> > by a
> >> > factor of 4 to 5 or more everywhere because they would be
> >> > flooding everywhere.  And 2) the AREA being QRM'ed is no
> > longer
> >> > "local" to the GATE doing the flooding, and hence the
areas
> >> > being QRM'ed have no local control over the flood in
their
> > area.
> >> >
> >> > It is the number 1 rule in APRS.  Do unto others as you
> > would
> >> > have them do unto you.
> >> >
> >> > Due to the low bandwidth of the 1200 baud APRS channel,
it
> > is
> >> > best when local sources of outside area QRM are kept
under
> > Local
> >> > control.  Hence, the courteous HF operator uses a path no
> > longer
> >> > than GATE,WIDE1-1 to keep his packets *local* to the
Distant
> > HF
> >> > gate that is injecting them into his -local- area.
> >> >
> >> > Just makes it courteous to everyone else...
> >> >
> >> > Bob, WB4APR
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:55:41 +1100, Radio
> > <radio at dodo.com.au>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > Well, I based my original setup on the pages that
Tony,
> >> >> VK5AH quoted in
> >> >> > good
> >> >> > faith. Today, I phoned Ross, VK3MY and he suggested
GATE,
> >> >> WIDE1-1 was the
> >> >> > correct path. I guess there are now conflicting
settings
> >> >> that need to be
> >> >> > adjusted, to suit a common agreed path setting for  HF
> >> >> stations on 30
> >> >> > metres,  that are mobiles etc.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Jack VK4JRC QG56FJ
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Tony wrote....
> >> >> > Snip>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Just isnt true.. Recomending anything with WIDE1-1
isnt
> >> > allways
> >> >> > guaranteed
> >> >> > to get very far either
> >> >> >
> >> >> > That might all work nice for you but are we really
> > expecting
> >> > the
> >> >> > Ionosphere
> >> >> > to work that well that we can make regular use of your
HF
> >> >> gates over
> >> >> > there
> >> >> > ?? I think not. By the way we have our own HF gates
over
> >> > here and
> >> >> > sometimes
> >> >> > they pick up posit beacons transmitted from your
gateways
> > ..
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Maybee for the best solution to the question in VK
land
> >> >> have a look at
> >> >> > this
> >> >> > web page which isnt all that dated.
> >> >> > http://www.aprs.net.au/hf_aprs_information.htm
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Tony Hunt  VK5AH
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Message: 2
> >> >> >> Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:39:58 -0500
> >> >> >> From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga at usna.edu>
> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [OZAPRS] APRS on 30 metres HF
> >> >> >> To: "'Radio'" <radio at dodo.com.au>, "'VK / ZL  APRS
> > Users'"
> >> >> >> <ozaprs at aprs.net.au>
> >> >> >> Message-ID: <026e01c74b11$473c7460$42577a83 at SGSbb>
> >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > I have tried several HF path variations like GATE,
> >> >> >> > WIDE and did not make it to www.findu.com
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > What is the correct path statement that should be
> > used?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The path that has always been recommended since we
first
> >> > began
> >> >> >> HF APRS on that freequency back in 1993, that is, VIA
> >> >> >> GATE,WIDE1-1.  (it used to be VIA GATE,WIDE, but the
> > WIDE
> >> > part
> >> >> >> of that is now obsolete and will not work).  See the
> >> > original
> >> >> >> HF.TXT file.  See the web page:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/gates.html
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Do not use ECHO.  The page explained above tells
why...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Thanks
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Bob, Wb4APR
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > _______________________________________________
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> >> >> > ________________________________________________
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> >> >> >
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