[OZAPRS] European v US new paradigm and pathlimiting +confusion....

[Ron Perry]

On Tue, 2006-10-31 at 22:52 +1100, Richard Hoskin wrote:
> Hi Mike,
> 
> I think you are correct about the possible confusion changes to the APRS
> paths may course. I'm not sure how many operators really understand how
the
> APRS paths work.
> 
> We put a few power point slides together a while ago to assist in the
> understanding of APRS paths. Visit
> http://vk3.aprs.net.au/symposium/pathing/frame.htm to see them.
> 
> I've also put a UI-View configuration guide on the web for VK3. It will
> probably apply to most other states at the moment too. See
> http://vk3.aprs.net.au/ui-view_config.htm As well there is a TinyTrack
> parameter guide at http://vk3.aprs.net.au/tt_settings.htm and a VK3 and
path
> guide for VK3 areas at http://vk3.aprs.net.au/packet_path_guide.htm 
> I'll update these pages after a National APRS Standard is developed.
> 

Good to see these a reminder of these resources.

> Hope this helps everyone in understanding APRS networking a little
better.
> 

They do. (When read) :-/
> Do you think that staying with RELAY,WIDE when the rest of the world
moves
> to WIDE1-1,WIDE2-2 will cause confusion for new VK operators in the
future?
> 

Yes it will. I believe it would be better to change. After the Vic
networked is National based. And please, please don't implement State
based routing, as border regions would suffer total confusion.

Regards,
Ron
vk3ecv/vk3wrm

> Cheers
> Richard
> VK3JFK
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ozaprs-bounces at aprs.net.au [mailto:ozaprs-bounces at aprs.net.au]
On
> > Behalf Of Mike Townsend
> > Sent: Monday, 30 October 2006 8:21 PM
> > To: ozaprs at aprs.net.au
> > Subject: Re: [OZAPRS] European v US new paradigm and path limiting
> > +confusion....
> > 
> > Confusion, Spot on. I got involved in this aspect of the hobby
> > approximately 9 months ago. I even but up an aerial at home for the
first
> > time in years because this looked interesting. Something new to bite
my
> > teeth into. But it is only recently that I've come to terms with the
> > potential of this system and its shortcomings.
> > This is through wading through a heap of conflicting information from
the
> > net and watching RF traffic here home.
> > 
> > My first port of call on the net for setting up my equipment for APRS
here
> > in VK2 being  http://vk2.aprs.net.au/ and this is where the confusion
> > begins on one page we have this,
> > 
> > DO
> > So now, as a user, needing to choose a path to digi your packets
through,
> > what should you use? Initially, set your UNPROTO path to RELAY (see
your
> > program docs for info on how to do this). Once you see some stations
> > appear on your map, see who you can hear directly using the DIGI,
> > PROTOPATH or DIRECT STATIONS list in your software. Can you hear a
WIDE
> > directly? If so, change your UNPROTO path to WIDE (or WIDE,WIDE if you
> > want to go two hops). If not, and you can work a RELAY directly; try
> > RELAY,WIDE (or RELAY,WIDE,WIDE).
> > 
> > and this,
> > 
> > DON'T use more than 3 hops. 3 hops will give you coverage of
approximately
> > 250Km line of sight.
> >     Example paths: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE  /  VK2THE-1,WIDE,WIDE  /  VK2KVK-
> > 1,VK2RMR-1,WIDE  /  RELAY,WIDE3-3  /  VK2TPH-1,WIDE3-3
> > 
> > followed by this,
> > 
> >  For Eastern Sydney Suburbs:
> > Fixed station: VK2JPJ-1, WIDE2-2
> > 
> > Mobile station: RELAY, WIDE2-2
> > 
> > For Western Sydney Suburbs and Lower Blue Mountains:
> > 
> > Fixed station: VK2RSW-1, WIDE2-2
> > 
> > Mobile station: RELAY, WIDE2-2
> > 
> > For the Illawarra area:
> > 
> > Fixed station: VK2AMW-1, WIDE2-2
> > 
> > Mobile station: RELAY,WIDE2-2
> > 
> > For the South Coast (Batemans Bay area):
> > 
> > Fixed station: VK2AMW-2, WIDE2-2
> > 
> > Mobile station: RELAY,WIDE2-2
> > 
> > For the Central Coast:
> > 
> > Fixed station: VK2RAG-1, WIDE2-2
> > 
> > Mobile station: RELAY,WIDE2-2
> > 
> > For the Central West:
> > 
> > Fixed station: WIDE
> > 
> > Mobile station: RELAY,WIDE2-2
> > 
> > For the Newcastle area:
> > 
> > Fixed station: WIDE
> > 
> > Mobile station: RELAY,WIDE2-2
> > 
> > For the Riverina:
> > 
> > Fixed station: VK2CSU-1, WIDE2-2
> > 
> > Mobile station: RELAY,WIDE2-2
> > 
> > Here they are talking about using and then not using the same paths
all on
> > the one page.
> > Also how long has it been since VK2RSW  has been on air?
> > At least the recommended paths for VK2, knowing what I know now, are
what
> > should be in common use. RELAY,WIDE2-2 in NSW if we are going to
persist
> > with using RELAY.
> > But what do I see on air in common use RELAY,WIDE3-3, 4 hops. This
surely
> > isn't necessary when with the present I-Gates you are usually no more
than
> > two hops away from one.
> > 
> > Then looking overseas I start reading about the new n-n paradigm, more
> > confusion to start with, but the more you read the more it makes
sense. It
> > makes sense from the point that anyone new to APRS when researching it
on
> > the net will most likely come across this information from a US web
site
> > that is of course pushing the new n-n paradigm and if like me they
read
> > about this and understand what BOB, WB4APR is trying to acheive you
soon
> > come to the conclusion that what we are doing here in Australia has
had
> > its day. Plus its SIMPLE. No need to wrap your brain around RELAY,
WIDE,
> > TRACE, WIDEn-n or TRACEn-n as a newcomer while wondering why your not
> > making it into digi because maybe your path is wrong or because of
the, as
> > then unknown, inefficiencies of the network. Or maybe you are just
under
> > or over deviating the radio  My closest digi at the time was VK2JPJ-1
at a
> > distance of 40km and this is what I had to wade my way through. I was
a
> > little foolish as well to think my MAXON w
> >  ith approx 4W O/P would have a chance even with everything set up
> > correctly. Even changing to the mobile with 50W didn't help much
driving
> > around the SW suburbs. I couldn't figure why others seemed to
consistently
> > make it while I struggled. Then I went RF rx at home and that was soon
> > answered by watching what was going on with there beacon rates. Plus
the
> > Internet to RF feed passing through VK2JPJ-1 was helping either.
> > 
> > With the new paradigm there is just the one path setting as a newcomer
to
> > understand, WIDEn-n.
> > 
> > The new paradigm with the change over of VK3 to 145.175MHz makes sense
for
> > network efficiency.
> > 
> > Full traceability and duplicate packet checking for WIDEn-n preferably
> > with a 3 hop limit. For mobiles WIDE1-1,WIDE2-2 or home WIDE3-3, I
like to
> > have a look from time to time and see where my packets have bouncing
> > around the network and now use TRACEn-n as my beacon path.
> > 
> > State based FLOODING. In VK7 they use TASn-n, why not NSWn-n or QLDn-n
etc
> > etc. If somebody wants to light up the State with his beacon, let him
or
> > she do it, but lets try and confine it to the State they are in.
> > 
> > Lets make it simple for the newcomers and even without a change to the
new
> > paradigm we could make a start with updating the VK2 APRS web pages to
> > remove the inconsistencies and errors.
> > If the other states have similar web pages could the administrators
have a
> > look and see if they need a workover to reflect what is actually
happening
> > in your area.
> > 
> > I know for some this is all old hat for some and there are those who
think
> > nothing needs to change but if its been a while since you have read up
on
> > the subject please consider having a look at this.
> > 
> > http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/aprs/fix14439.html
> > 
> > Also have a think about how many hops you have in your path settings
and
> > whether it really needs to be as high as you have it set. If all your
want
> > is to make it to an I-gate then have a look at your 48hour log down
> > loadable from here http://france.aprs2.net/ and see if you can shorten
> > your beacon path and still make it. A one hop reduction can make a big
> > difference for everbody trying to use the frequency.
> > 
> > 
> > Mike, VK2INT.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Re: [OZAPRS] European v US new paradigm and path limiting
> > 
> > Actually, I believe that your second paragraph answer your first
> > paragraph. A very big reason that I see for us to change is that
almost
> > all APRS software, hardware and websites originate in either the US or
> > Europe, and they will all be saying "Use these settings". Anyone
setting
> > up equipment for the first time is going to be really confused, we've
> > seen it here in New Zealand recently.
> > 
> > The new paradigm also enables the popular KPC3+ TNCs to be 100%
> > successful as APRS digipeaters instead of suffering from lack of
> > duplicate suppression when either plain RELAY or WIDE are used.
> > 
> > Locally, we have some home stations using RELAY as their first digi
hop
> > setting because (I think) paths seem to be such a confusing issue for
> > many users. A standard WIDE1-1,WIDEn-N for trackers and WIDEn-N for
home
> > stations would be so simple, and the tracing of paths will help
network
> > analysis and monitoring.
> > 
> > 73 David ZL3AI.
> > 
> > 
> > To: ozaprs at aprs.net.au
> > Message-ID: <20061030040523.70F065F40E2 at smtp-2.paradise.net.nz>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> > 
> > Hi Ben and others,
> > 
> > > Its a pity that we have to change things that really are not broken,
> > just
> > > because a few people cant get it right or wont listen.
> > 
> > > This might seem a strange question, but why do we have to change?
The US
> > and
> > > EU have a far larger population of Hams than we will ever dream of
in
> > our
> > > life time.
> > 
> > > Ben Lindner
> > > VK5JFK
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ozaprs mailing list
> > Ozaprs at aprs.net.au
> > http://aprs.net.au/mailman/listinfo/ozaprs
> 
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